C2C Care Flag Storage: A time of great possibilities: SJSQ-9461 - c2cc@culturalheritage.org

Participant: Wordly [W] English (US)

[>> W] All right.
[W] Every.
[>> W] And welcome to another c to c.
[>> W] K.
[W] Where?
[W] My name.
[W] Is.
[W] Is Robin Bower.
[>> W] I am the CDC.
[>> W] Care.
[W] Coordinator.
[W] I'm going to.
[>> W] Go through a couple.
[W] Of quick.
[W] Introductory.
[W] Slides.
[W] And then we're going to hand this over to our presenter today.
[>> W] Bear with me while I get myself set.
[W] Up.
[>> W] PM eastern today.
[W] CDC care coordinator.
[W] And I'm coming to DC in collections.
[W] Org on that website you list of community links.
[W] You will see.
[W] Links to upcoming webinars and which I'm going to get into in a second.
[>> W] And just we.
[>> W] Also have two outlets on social media if you would like lining up a lot of great programing for the next couple of months.
[W] First from 1 to 2 p.m. eastern, which is colleagues up at CCI, the Canadian Conservation Institute.
[W] That webinar is really going to be about different sources.
[W] They've been working on all that kind of for that free webinar.
[W] When you have a chance size institution, that one we're going to be talking to, some encourage you to take a look at that program, talking a little bit about large scale water abatement.
[W] You know, obviously ice, as many people know, I used to live in Florida.
[W] Obviously we had large water abatement also happens on the small scale.
[W] So we're going to be.
[>> W] Taking our upcoming three.
[>> W] Webinars, all part of a course about monitoring what matters, monitoring when it comes to temperature and.
[>> W] Humidity.
[>> W] Humidity and environment and all that kind of fun stuff can be quite complicated.
[W] So that subject has been broken down into three separate programs there on March 25th, April 22nd and May 13th, again partnering with our folks over at conserve.
[W] So I would encourage you to go sign up for that program.
[W] And you can.
[W] That one is also free.
[W] Usually we charge for courses, conserve stepped up and help promote this.
[W] So and actually are help supporting that and doing a lot of the arrangements.
[W] So if you're interested in monitoring I do enjoy the name for number three which is making sense of the squiggly line.
[W] So even if you just want to look at how to deal with all the data you pull from monitoring and environmental monitoring, you can sign up for one or all three of the courses if you are interested, so I encourage you to do that as well.
[W] Couple quick technical reminders when it comes to our fabulous zoom platform that we're using.
[W] We are using the chat box.
[W] You guys are doing a great job at that.
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[>> W] Doing.
[>> W] We have also enabled the Q&A.
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[W] The Q&A box is there to ask questions.
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[W] Point during this webinar, please feel free to put it in that Q&A box.
[W] We will have a dedicated Q&A at the end of this session.
[W] I should also add that we are recording today's session.
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[W] So I would encourage you to take a look at our website and the.
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[W] We are also using this fabulous system known as wordly for our transcription service.
[W] Today.
[W] You can actually access it.
[W] When I started up the program today, I actually shared it via the zoom app.
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[W] It's a really neat service, and I would encourage you guys to go take a look at it.
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[W] Excuse me, along with help from individual donors, if you have benefited from CDC care, please consider a gift today.
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[>> W] Our audience, CDC.
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[>> W] With that being said, I am going to stop.
[W] Sharing.
[W] I'm actually going to switch my share.
[W] We're going to be hearing today about a fabulous webinar about flag storage.
[W] This is something.
[>> W] That.
[>> W] Obviously, a lot of.
[>> W] People.
[W] Will get.
[>> W] To deal with and small and midsize collections on slide show on their.
[W] And Gwen I'm going to go ahead and ask you to unmute yourself if you don't mind.
[>> W] Bet.
[>> W] Excellent.
[W] We can hear you loud and clear.
[W] So whenever you're ready, just tell me to, you know, go to the next slide and we will see you all during the Q&A period at the end of the program.
[W] So Gwen, feel free to.
[>> W] And I want to first thank you for attending this webinar.
[W] I believe that this topic about flags is timely, at least in the United States, knowing there's attendees on due to our tertiary.
[W] So next slide.
[W] I'm showing a list of topics covered in this webinar.
[W] I'll webinar so as that creating storage for flag collections often can seem straightforward.
[W] However, due to the of techniques and materials used in creating a creation of historic flags, a discerning eye should be used when deciding on the specific storage methods.
[W] First, I will briefly discuss the materials and the types of conditions that might be found going into the very that you might find, which will help you or determine the various storage technique options.
[W] So next slide.
[W] The vast majority of flags are constructed.
[W] Of silk fabric and for silk national flags like two examples here the heavily blue.
[W] Bleached white flag as seen in the stripes.
[W] Become the most degraded.
[W] Created as seen.
[>> W] Here.
[W] Here.
[>> W] The red.
[W] Stripes, however, often can see bleeding into the white stripes.
[W] On and have can be come, be faded on.
[W] Two typical types of deterioration of the white, as seen here, is the weakness of one direction of thread creating slits, as in the upper image, and the fracturing of the silk as in the lower image.
[W] This shattering of silk, especially during the later 19th century, can also be seen in silk garments.
[W] So you might be familiar with this and this due to the waiting processes starting in World War One.
[W] Synthetic and semi-synthetic materials like rayon were beginning to be used.
[W] Rayon as well as nylon are like silk and are very sensitive to the light, and they become powdery.
[W] So next slide.
[W] The other common fiber is wool, and wool is typically more stable and is used for the wide.
[W] Greatest sizes.
[W] Of flags on the left is a mid-century flag from the Civil War, and it is a tight lead structure which allows the painted on to be.
[W] You can see the painted honors there on the stripes.
[W] It provides us a nice surface, whereas wool is also used for the largest of our flags, especially the garrison flags on think for Americans, the Star Spangled Banner that the Smithsonian, which are made of bunting and it's an open weave structure as seen on the right.
[W] And you can see that the kind of condition issues that are long tears and creases on.
[>> W] Wool.
[>> W] However.
[>> W] As.
[W] Many.
[>> W] You might know also is.
[W] Love by insects.
[W] Whether carpet beetles or webbing clothes moths.
[W] And on the left you can see the holes caused by such insects, and in the center.
[W] Picture can be seen the remains.
[W] And also signs of.
[W] Such an.
[W] Infestation.
[W] More about that.
[W] Later.
[W] So next slide.
[W] Cotton, however, can have a range of deterioration.
[>> W] This.
[>> W] This range can be based on its width structure thickness.
[W] Thread thickness and how.
[W] How it was stored in the.
[>> W] Past.
[>> W] Past.
[W] But one big observation is.
[W] While the white areas of silk flags are often found deteriorated, it is the red of.
[>> W] The.
[>> W] Cotton flags that is the most exquisitely embroidered with silk.
[W] Chanel is.
[>> W] Often.
[>> W] Obvious.
[W] Often additional layer effects.
[W] Fabric and.
[W] Also creates a thickness.
[W] On that would be to not like the other.
[W] Surrounding areas.
[W] Next slide.
[W] The image here is of detail of a regimental flag with a.
[W] Large painted area and regimental flags.
[W] On often there, because their flags are two sided, they're painted.
[W] On both sides.
[W] Here.
[W] The paint can be is found on all fibers.
[W] That create flags.
[W] Many Civil War regimentals.
[W] Are are painted.
[W] But in the 19th century, painted embellishments on silk on can be found to become more stiff, as in this case, and this.
[W] Here you can see it's become brittle and lots of tears and cracks in both directions.
[W] This flag appears to have been folded when all the layers were still flexible as necessary due to the stiffness of should not be rolled.
[W] Next slide phenomenon is that the oils in some cases can leach out of the.
[W] Paint and deteriorate the surrounding areas of the fabric.
[W] In this case, often painted stars in your canton simply fall out.
[W] So if you think so, that's where they've gone.
[W] It's often.
[W] This means that the fabric was not allowing the oils to leach from that forms on the paint layer itself.
[W] The action of the paint.
[W] With the chemicals that are within the fabric and in such reaction is called saponification.
[W] Next slide.
[W] So one might not think about banners as being part of a flag collection, but they are found in all collections.
[W] They're unlike.
[W] Like a standard flag.
[W] As it's constructed with several layers.
[W] Shares.
[W] And for environmental reasons.
[W] And each of those layers.
[W] Tend to react differently and contribute to the deterioration and condition issues.
[W] This example of a fireman banner that had been on display vertically for a long for many years.
[W] Fireman banners also have the unfortunate luck to often hang near those exhaust the exhaust of trucks.
[W] Actually, this is maybe one of the cleanest banner fireman banners that I've seen.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Some flags are fortunate to still retain their associated tassels, such as those on the left, but ribbons of all kinds are found on flags, especially banners.
[W] And each of these assorted elements needs to be examined and treated and are part of any consideration of a storage technique.
[W] So next slide.
[W] Moving on to sort of a new topic, but is also on is of the previously treated or restored flags.
[W] You might have heard of.
[W] Of names like Fowler or.
[W] Roeser.
[W] These women and many.
[W] Mother and.
[>> W] Daughter.
[W] Team.
[>> W] Were instrumental.
[W] And preserve.
[W] Bring the flags that we have.
[W] We might think that these were.
[W] Unfortunate techniques.
[W] But in many cases, they're intervening.
[W] Preserved.
[W] The elements and.
[W] Fragments.
[W] Had they not, we might have fewer flags in.
[W] Collection.
[W] I want to share.
[W] A few of these early.
[W] Restores mostly women.
[W] To mainly show where flag preservation began.
[W] As that what we do now in many ways is just a progression of those current of those practices.
[W] So first is a.
[W] William Fowler, best known for her work on the.
[W] Previously mentioned Star Spangled Banner.
[W] But she also treated.
[W] Many flags with this.
[W] Technique.
[>> W] Next.
[W] Slide.
[>> W] Part of the patent stitch was to.
[W] Place the flag onto a layer of linen, securing the flag with the various variation of a buttonhole stitch.
[W] Stitch.
[W] As you can see here.
[W] Commonly now the linen.
[W] Port layer as tears.
[W] Thus it no longer such an example.
[W] Where the of.
[W] That case the flag actually.
[>> W] Is.
[>> W] Is probably in pretty good condition.
[W] Condition.
[W] Then the.
[W] Surrounding.
[W] Amelia.
[W] With many of her flags.
[W] And in 1934 such an article mentioned her as freak.
[W] I find this a funny image.
[W] This is only 11 years after her mother on staff, but you can see them hard at work was in fact the introduction of the sewing machine, right?
[W] You can see how she did different kind of sort of embroidered areas.
[W] Whereas you can see the machine stitch.
[W] Stitching in the on deck.
[W] Graded areas.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Roy Roser was this technique really stands out and is a sign of any natural fibers and all to be replaced with nylon.
[W] Net.
[W] And if there were no stripes on she would of the stripes with alternating red on.
[W] Next slide, the nylon net is as you.
[>> W] Can.
[>> W] Imagine, stronger than the flag, especially when used with silk flags.
[W] Thus, the nylon is abrasive to the silk and creates a hole punch effect, as you can see here, when her treated flags are treated by us or rehoused, it is actually, it turns out, the net that needs the most attention.
[W] So next slide.
[W] The last pass restorer I'll mention is Julia, who had another approach.
[W] She also sandwiched the flags between net but have cotton or silk and then hand stitched in this diagonal pattern.
[W] My image is not of an A flag that is.
[W] Sandwiched.
[W] But the but the netting is.
[W] Backing the flag.
[W] So, having treated many of these past flags, treated flags, I will say that these women really knew their art.
[W] There really was a skill to each of their own technique.
[W] Techniques.
[W] However, at times they simply unstitched disassembled parts and then reassembled areas, fragments, and other parts on and rearranged them to create an improved on presentation.
[W] And this is an approach on that is no longer acceptable.
[W] A new slide.
[W] Now for the pass on webbing, clothes moths and carpet beetles were mentioned previously in connection with wool flags.
[W] It is important to be able to identify these insects not just for flags, but for your entire.
[W] Collection.
[W] And I know there are other.
[W] Webinars and on other resources.
[>> W] That.
[>> W] You can go to to really learn more about these materials, you need to understand.
[W] Understand their life cycles.
[W] Identify the possible debris.
[W] And on the damage.
[>> W] That.
[>> W] They.
[W] Cause in order to.
[W] And these are all part of an effective integrated pest management policy.
[W] So next slide.
[W] The as part of any storage project.
[W] On it is important to remove both the insects and the debris.
[W] On.
[W] Then you can.
[W] Do you have a better.
[W] On ability to determine.
[>> W] If you.
[W] Do have.
[>> W] Continual another infestation or you know the situation.
[W] So next slide.
[W] But what is not the solution is to use mothballs.
[W] The toxic chemicals of mothballs is is absorbed by all fibers of old and.
[>> W] Are.
[>> W] Are permanent moisture of any.
[W] Amount is readmitted on readmits.
[W] The volatile chemicals.
[W] I cannot tell you how many cotton christening dresses I.
[W] I have cleaned with the use of a respirator.
[W] Also, it should just be assumed that any wool flag in your collection has been exposed to mothballs.
[>> W] On that.
[>> W] So just take that for a fact.
[W] Next slide.
[W] The answer actually is simple housekeeping.
[W] Keeping and vacuuming as part of any rehousing project.
[W] Ease artifact should be careful.
[W] Vacuumed.
[W] And this is just you know, there are many resources of finding how to make a screen on finding on different supplies.
[W] So these and probably this is already well within your your kit.
[W] So next slide.
[W] So mostly that was a review just for everyone and making sure that.
[W] Those are considerations.
[W] So now for what.
[W] Maybe you're really here for is on is the actual how to decide.
[W] And what are the different storage techniques on.
[W] And now with an understanding of the different types of flags or materials in them, you can sort of have can put that in your mind to think about these different types.
[W] Next, and I'll begin with the smaller size collections.
[W] So sink mats are really the easiest.
[W] The flags can be flat.
[W] Associated elements can be included and secured.
[W] And I've included the link here of the National Parks.
[W] Service conservatism that gives on in full instructions on how to construct these.
[W] The side flaps and are selected to be slightly thicker than your artifact.
[W] And larger sizes of this sink mat can be created with the use of.
[>> W] Thick.
[>> W] thicker boards, and you can.
[W] See here an example.
[W] Of.
[W] A banner.
[W] From the civil.
[W] Or that.
[W] Or pre-Civil War where you even you could attach.
[W] The wooden sticks.
[W] That are associated with this artifact.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Sink mats can have covers or be stacked on.
[W] And when stacked on, it is then the upper sink mat that becomes the cover of the mat below.
[W] And here's just a few examples that I've seen in various museums over the years.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Such a format can be modified and used for other small artifacts that might also be in your political or military collections.
[W] The lower road of images are simply techniques I that I have found in other collections, and I share here with you.
[W] Next slide.
[W] So here's a mock up of one of those solutions.
[W] Solutions of military ribbons as seen in the previous slide, mylar strips secure the ribbons while the board provides the support for this example.
[W] Next slide.
[W] So moving on to.
[W] Larger size collections.
[W] The support board or panel really needs.
[W] To be considered.
[W] Here is a typical parade banner.
[W] Another fireman's I'm sure there is a fireman banner in your collection as well.
[W] These are very complex.
[W] Artifacts and something you.
[W] Just to keep in mind.
[W] Of all the different.
[W] Materials that are possible.
[W] Present.
[W] Here the use of an aluminum honeycomb panel is really ideal.
[W] It will not tour.
[>> W] Kirk.
[>> W] And will fully support the weight.
[W] That such a collection can have.
[W] Another benefit.
[W] Of this.
[W] Storage technique is that.
[>> W] It?
[>> W] It can also be used for display.
[W] The panel can be positioned at an angle for viewing.
[W] Next slide.
[W] This example a padded.
[W] Cover was created with recesses for the thicker.
[W] Elements and secured with.
[W] Velcro.
[W] Tabs.
[W] This banner is owned by a small historical society and needed this added detection, protection.
[W] It also allowed for easy transportation because of the pressure of the two supports.
[W] Next slide.
[W] So of course, flags and banners get larger and can no longer be flat.
[W] That aids and larger the diameter the better, but it well at the other end too small can be damaging to the to the artifact.
[W] It is best to add three inches at each end of the tube, or even more for handling and placing of the ties.
[W] What cannot be rolled are flags that are stiff or of uneven surfaces.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Rolling it first seems easy, but it takes some practice and possibly several attempts.
[>> W] It is.
[>> W] Is good to keep in mind that no textile is flat.
[W] Flags especially are not due to their previous use.
[W] A traditional flag that has spent time on a flagpole or staff will be slightly diagonal or elongated into a parallelogram, with the upper hoist corner corner higher.
[W] This effect will be more evident with flags of tighter weave constructions.
[W] Next slide.
[>> W] One.
[>> W] Once the flag is rolled, the ends of the tube need to are used.
[W] To suspend on the.
[W] Rolled flag.
[W] And this is what prevents the layers from touching the surface and and thus uneven compression.
[>> W] You can.
[>> W] See the variety of you know these are sort of mid size.
[W] Flags.
[W] So draw.
[W] ERS are a possibility.
[W] Or even placing such items in in boxes.
[W] Next slide.
[W] I here are examples of cradles for larger tubes.
[W] How the cradles are designed can be determined by the size of your collection.
[W] This solution.
[W] Provides access while allowing flexibility so that middle image.
[W] That particular organization only had two Civil War.
[W] Flags and we on.
[W] So this was the solution that came up.
[W] On the right image you can see the hoists of flags can easily be seen on the and the hoist.
[W] Keep in mind the hoist is what is rolled at the last as that it being thicker.
[W] The thickest part of the flag.
[>> W] Bag.
[>> W] If it was rolled first.
[W] It would create an uneven.
[W] Surface.
[W] These tubes do not even have, and you can see these tubes also don't even have internal supports as that they're rolled on thicker, sturdier tubes.
[W] On next slide.
[W] Racks can also be designed.
[W] And here it's where budget becomes critical.
[W] On the left the rack is made of wood I believe two by fours that are sealed and painted.
[W] Whereas on the other example on the right was custom made on and is powder coated.
[W] Whatever design is selected, access of the individual rolled flag needs to be considered, as well as movement of the long tube both in and out of the racks, but also around the museum.
[W] Long tubes need sturdy internal.
[>> W] Support.
[>> W] Boards to prevent them from.
[W] Bowing over time.
[>> W] Next slide.
[>> W] I list this option last as small as a smaller group of types of flags can actually be rehoused on this method for wool and cotton flags, folding is an option, especially for the large garrison flags where the long tube necessary can be unpractical.
[W] This type of storage is not an option.
[W] For silk flags, this technique.
[W] Is like folding and boxing quilts and coverlets.
[W] Two long sausages will need or will be needed.
[W] For the shortest dimension of the flags and then two shorter ones for the other direction, sausages can be made of paper, however, paper does not keep its shape for long.
[W] What I recommend and.
[W] At the end of the presentation.
[W] Demonstrate.
[W] But I recommend the use of polyester batting and cotton stockinette.
[W] Next slide.
[W] I'm going to end the presentation with two examples of larger collections.
[W] This first example is the storage of over 300 flags that are owned by the Maine State Museum.
[W] The state wanted to be able to display the entire collection, while also that being part of the storage on techniques.
[W] Each flag was mounted onto an aluminum honeycomb panel.
[W] Shorter cabinets.
[W] As you can see here on.
[W] Made by Small Corp.
[W] Where where the mounted flags could be stored.
[W] While the top was used for display and what this allowed to happen is that they had a group of flags for the future displays that could easily be rotated just in this.
[W] In the gallery area, while larger cabinets were also were also used, but were located in another location.
[W] And next slide smaller panels like guidons and markers were also used, and could be kept in these cabinets with the use of these long bars, so they were attached at the front and the back of the panel, and were the width of the cabinet itself, and ran on runners that were located inside the cabinets.
[W] Next slide.
[W] The other example they here they used chrome plated wire racks from Metro International.
[W] This collection of banners grows every year and thus required flexibility and an adaptive solution.
[W] This image shows on the units with their desk covers.
[W] Next slide.
[W] Each banner was attached to a thick board, a core class board here, rods and cords and tassels can easily be secured to the boards.
[W] Each banner was sandwiched between muslin.
[W] On this collection is also maintained by a group of loyal volunteers that on work hard on this collection.
[W] Every summer.
[W] Okay, next slide.
[W] So I want to thank everyone for attending.
[W] And I know that there's questions.
[W] Time for.
[W] Questions.
[W] Questions which I'm sure there are a lot of.
[>> W] The chance to read.
[>> W] And.
[>> W] A resource page for this website.
[W] And also you can get a link to the presentation at the links I just put in the chat.
[W] And I'm going to go ahead and put a chat for our survey in there, because I always like to put that at the start of Q&A, just to make sure y'all will take our survey, because that helps to plan out future webinars as we do them.
[W] So with that, I'm going to start looking at the Q&A box, because we do indeed already have questions.
[W] So I'm going to start with what layers would you recommend between.
[>> W] Would.
[>> W] And silk textiles.
[W] So what would you recommend.
[>> W] So on.
[W] You know no sealant on is perfect for would you know first of all you want if you're using, would you want to try to find a wood that is the lowest admitting acid?
[W] So poplar is sort of the one that we're most recommend.
[W] And then if you use a liquid sealant, you need at least three.
[W] Layers.
[W] But that's not going to be permanent.
[W] One.
[>> W] One of.
[W] The things.
[W] Things is.
[>> W] A material called Marvel Seal, which is a three layered material thanks to NASA.
[W] NASA on.
[W] And you know this all your ink cartridges.
[W] Are come in with this packaging as well as those metallic balloons and basically.
[W] Basically it's a foil inside and that's what's.
[W] Silver.
[W] And it's sandwiched between two plastic layers and but they have different melting points.
[W] So the dull side melts at a lower temperature than the high side.
[W] So even if.
[W] The.
[W] So would you would cover this with on use my Marvel seal to cover on the wood.
[W] That is also how you could you know this tube to select.
[W] You can start having acid free tube, but those are very expensive.
[W] Whereas another option is to cover your tube with a layer of Marvel seal as another option.
[W] And you can just use your regular iron set on high, and it will at least stick to itself.
[W] We can overlap layers, that kind of thing.
[W] You can use mylar.
[W] But I find that the Marvel seal.
[>> W] Can actually be found if you buy it in bulk on is more economic than the mylar.
[W] Very cool.
[>> W] I think it's always good to bring up to like you work with what you got right and also your budget.
[W] Like that's a huge consideration with all of this is if you because, you know, I.
[W] I know when I started out my career, people would be like get the best and brightest and I'd be like, my budget cannot support.
[>> W] That.
[>> W] That so finding ways to work around.
[W] that is incredibly important.
[W] So thanks for bringing that.
[>> W] Up.
[>> W] I like this question because I had to deal with this type of collection many years ago.
[W] It says, hello, we have some silk military ribbons and small flags that were affixed to wooden boards with glue.
[W] Back in the 1970s.
[W] Is there a safe way to remove them?
[W] And I know oftentimes, you know, we deal with.
[W] the the ramifications of what people did previously.
[W] So I thought maybe I wanted to get your thoughts on that situation.
[W] So they're glued directly to the wood.
[W] That's what it seems like.
[W] Yeah.
[>> W] Maybe somebody can train you.
[W] It depends on the glue.
[W] But if it's like a hide glue or something water soluble, possibly there could be a training moment where you could learn how to soften the glue and get it off.
[W] If it's.
[W] You know, Elmer's glue or or, you know, white glue or other things, then it's sort of a a more severe kind of treatment.
[W] I would photo document them at least as a start.
[W] So you know what you have.
[W] Depending on how they're glued or the extent of the size of the areas, you possibly could slip something underneath to prevent that or lessen the contact of the wood.
[W] You know, it's hard to know without images, but those are just thoughts I can possibly have.
[>> W] I mean, my thought too would be, I mean, and again, I always say this like I'm a registrar, I'm not a conservator.
[W] So if I would come across something like that in my collection, I would definitely photograph the heck out of it.
[>> W] Just.
[W] To like.
[W] Be like.
[>> W] This is what I'm dealing.
[>> W] With.
[>> W] And then I would kind of treat it as like an all in one object for a while until a specialist like.
[W] You, You would come through.
[W] Or maybe I was talking to a conservator and kind of say, I have this weird thing, you know, what are your thoughts?
[W] And then you would start getting into the testing realm of trying to figure out how to remove them.
[W] I mean, there could be the chance and I'd want your take on this, that you don't remove it, because if you try to remove it, it could harm the silk, right?
[W] In the long run.
[>> W] Right?
[>> W] Sometimes less is the better of.
[W] I mean, good is the evil of best.
[W] And.
[W] Right.
[W] It's just part of this continuum of what we've learned.
[W] And that's sort of what I wanted to show you all the those early techniques in the 19th century.
[W] I didn't go in.
[W] To the various folks.
[>> W] Who.
[W] Who.
[>> W] Use different adhesive techniques.
[>> W] Which are.
[>> W] Are also in present in collections.
[W] You know, these people got gained a reputation and especially state collections.
[W] They would go to a state collection and, you know, do many on not just 1 or 2 at a time.
[>> W] But that also is present on.
[W] So I felt like for a while people really like to adhere things to other things.
[W] And I feel like we're dealing with that, like now where it's like, stop gluing things down.
[>> W] So anyway.
[>> W] Can you speak to best care practices with metallic fringe and other metal elements?
[W] So that's a good.
[>> W] Question.
[W] Question, because.
[>> W] I do think that.
[W] With a lot of these flags.
[W] Or any of these items.
[W] It's it's almost like a composite artifact, right?
[W] You obviously have the silk of the actual ribbon or flag or whatever.
[W] But then there's already, you know, there's this little metal attachment or something like that.
[W] So how would you deal with an object like that in terms of storage or anything else?
[>> W] Yeah.
[W] So, you know, that's part of the consideration of the storage technique that you use.
[W] So rolling a flag that has fringe on sort of as a last resort, resort banners are going to you need to have them.
[W] You can sort of gently align all through up until world flags, presentation flags had silk fringe.
[>> W] Within the.
[>> W] You know that are attached to the header.
[>> W] And it's.
[>> W] Sort of a nice easy way.
[W] To finish off a flag, especially with on those regimentals where you don't always have a salvage edge as a finishing element.
[W] The metallic and bullion fringe often come tangled and un twisted.
[W] And then I find sometimes on supporting or wrapping them with paper or something to then protect the other elements because you don't want the metallic fringe to then cause damage to the surrounding fabrics that it's attached.
[W] And often because of the weight they're separating from on the flag itself.
[W] Flags with fringe typically are silk, or the nylon or rayon of World War One, and they're most likely a much weaker and so should be flat.
[W] On.
[W] You know, you might want to you might think, oh, well, I could box this, but the manipulating of anything.
[W] Even if you sandwich the flag between, you know, cotton sheets or muslin, you're still manipulating those fragile, brittle and often powdery textiles on fabric.
[W] So that's why they need to be flat.
[>> W] Yeah, it stinks because that is like a space it takes over more space, right?
[W] Like when you're storing stuff flat, especially large format things.
[W] But it does seem like the objects are happier that way because they do have that support all around them.
[W] So it's kind of, you know, but again, you're dealing with space then.
[>> W] So it's kind of a choice you have to make at a certain point.
[W] So that was part of the examples at the end of, you know, a lot of money was spent with those aluminum honeycomb panels.
[W] Plus they had to be prepared by people who were trained.
[W] That was a collection that Josephine Roeser had her little fingers on.
[W] And.
[W] So many of those.
[W] Panels were just were covered by those treated all flags sandwiched between nylon.
[W] Net.
[W] But that other example that is actually it's a collection that started in the 1880s.
[W] And banners were made every year by.
[W] It's kind of an interesting group, one of a kind collection.
[W] So they have the full gamut of condition issues and but with they didn't.
[W] Have quite the budget.
[W] And that's why we went for the chrome, the wire racks.
[W] And then we could adjust them.
[W] They could as the collection changed and the use of the coroplast boards, which was much cheaper, they they could use hand tools.
[W] So that, you know, anyway, that's sort of different methods of how to get collections flat with a, you know, a range of budgets.
[>> W] That makes sense.
[W] Someone was asking, actually, where do you source the aluminum honeycomb support?
[W] They said, I've never heard of that technique before.
[W] And can it be cut in house or do you have to order it to size?
[W] So I always have to do this.
[W] Disclaimer we don't endorse any of our vendors as we talk about them in CDC care, but we're always encouraging people to share.
[W] So they were curious as to where you actually got that support.
[>> W] Right.
[W] So the panels are different thicknesses, but three quarter or an inch thickness.
[W] The core is the aluminum honeycomb panel, aluminum honeycomb.
[W] And then with aluminum skins on each side in order to make sure that the adhesion of the aluminum skin to the honeycomb, you need a certain kind of equipment that there's sort of a vacuum pressing down while the glue is curing.
[W] So few places are able to do that sort of in house.
[W] And I source those panels on from Small Corp., who I mentioned, and they're in north central Massachusetts.
[W] When I start started work in the 80s, there was the use of paper honeycomb panels or ticor.
[W] And it's a lighter weight product.
[W] It's cheaper.
[W] It comes already with the skin on it.
[W] However, what was found over time is that they lost.
[W] Their flatness because.
[>> W] Of of.
[>> W] On absorption of moisture.
[W] And then then they weren't doing their job anymore.
[W] So that's why we've moved to the aluminum.
[>> W] So someone's asking, do you recommend periodic unrolling and rerolling in the up direction.
[W] It's important.
[W] Civil war is falling and I'm afraid.
[W] And I feel you with that situation.
[W] So not being afraid to touch stuff I should say sometimes.
[W] So what would you recommend in that scenario?
[>> W] So changing directions on is, you know, if the hoist is low is present.
[W] As I was saying earlier, that has to be rolled last at the end, you start at the fly edge and then go to the the hoist.
[W] And you know, if it's so fragile, then.
[W] I, you know, I would unroll it as a special occasion that absolutely necessary.
[>> W] Sorry.
[>> W] Because that silk really does not want to be aggravated at all.
[W] And so each time you handle it, you're just going to have less of what you had.
[W] You know, if you don't have if if the flag has not been documented with images or that kind of thing, then that would be a reason on to unroll it.
[W] But there's no need to unroll it.
[W] Just unroll it.
[W] The other thing is, you know, about folding a lot.
[W] You know, this is kind of information from quilts, that kind of thing.
[W] You know, there's information out there that says, oh, you must refold your quilts every year.
[W] Well, that is based on not padding out your folds.
[W] If you use sausages or padding out your folds with something that does not crush over time, then there's no need to refold it.
[W] So this the idea of using strips of batting.
[W] If you know of quilters, oftentimes they have remains of strips of batting already from when they're making their quilt that you could ask to have.
[W] And that then is covered with cotton stockinette.
[W] And you can then that will not lose its shape.
[W] It's a permanent on padding for those folds.
[>> W] Gotcha.
[>> W] So really the idea was to not allow creasing to occur if things are in a state where creasing won't occur or it's been stopped or slowed some way, just leave it be, I guess.
[W] Is the.
[>> W] Ultimate answer and something like that.
[>> W] I do have supply.
[W] I can demonstrate how to.
[W] So if you have what you need is a PVC tube is great a fragment because it's smooth and slick.
[W] Here's my demonstration is cotton tubing.
[W] That you can get at any medical supply place on why this is white I don't know.
[W] I typically use the unbleached, but you definitely need to wash this just and only in hot water is necessary.
[W] And obviously this comes in a variety of diameters.
[W] I typically use two inch, but three is also available.
[W] You have your batting and this is just a fragment.
[W] It goes it's not very pretty right now because it travels too much.
[W] So here's the PVC, I've, I put my stockinette over it like you're putting on your stockings.
[W] Then the end is pushed in your batting goes in with that end.
[W] And as the batting goes through the tube, so does the stockinette.
[W] Like that.
[>> W] Yeah.
[W] That's fun.
[>> W] So you can do very long on on sausages.
[>> W] It's like the Christmas tree keepers.
[W] Like people stick the Christmas trees in the netting at Christmas.
[>> W] Time.
[W] Oh yeah.
[W] Right.
[>> W] Very fun.
[>> W] Oh that's a good way to describe it.
[>> W] Yeah yeah yeah okay I'm going to hit two more questions.
[W] And then because we're at two right now.
[W] But if you have time I'd like to hit two more.
[W] One says I inherited a flag collection that uses a fire resistant material in storage of the flags.
[W] Is it safe to store directly on top of the silk flags?
[W] The material is clearly chemically treated.
[W] So how would you store something like that?
[W] So it sounds like they're in an enclosure that's listed as fire retardant.
[W] So the person is trying to figure out do I separate them and store them separately, or do I keep everything together?
[>> W] I guess I'm not really understanding.
[W] So the fire protection material is like a sandwiching layer, an interleaving layer.
[>> W] Yeah.
[W] It sounds like like almost when they, when they got the flags, they were brought to them in a storage material that's listed as, as flag or as fire resistant basically.
[W] So it's like a, you know, a bag for a flag.
[W] Essentially.
[>> W] I would.
[W] Just not use it.
[W] I, you know, I would replace it with something that, you know, like a cotton sheet or, you know, a washed, unbleached muslin.
[>> W] Yeah.
[>> W] My answer from the registration side of the house would be separate them, but keep them like associated number wise, you know what I mean.
[W] Like I would I.
[>> W] Oh.
[W] So you're saying it's part of the collection?
[>> W] Yeah I think well especially if there's like a weird historic component to it if you're like, oh, this is kind of a neat, weird, you know, moment in time.
[>> W] Gotcha.
[>> W] Technology they had that's kind of cool.
[W] And you might have someone who's interested in that aspect.
[W] Right?
[W] So I would just be careful of, you know, disassociation.
[W] We all hate that.
[W] We hate it when objects move apart.
[W] But I would probably follow what you had said on the flag storage, Gwen.
[W] And then probably do something slightly different with that fire resistant bag.
[W] But yeah, I would probably separate them.
[W] In my experience.
[W] Makes me a little scary.
[W] Like to think like, what is it that that's making that fire retardant right now?
[W] For sure.
[W] I saw another one that I thought was really good.
[W] Oh, I like this one too.
[W] So it says, what method would you recommend for securing flags that are stored flat to the base material of the tray and box?
[W] Would you tie down with twill tape or use muslin for a grippy base?
[W] So I think they're asking like if you have something on a flat surface, how would you secure it on there?
[>> W] So I like to place, you know, this is not just flags on, but onto another fabric.
[W] And that becomes the handling sling, whatever you want to call it.
[W] So that you're touching your holding this sheet.
[W] You know, I love old cotton sheets.
[W] If you can still find some you know, estate sales are great.
[W] So if, if you have your support, you have this handling sling fabric, your flag on top.
[W] I would put another fabric on top on and then maybe just the weight of those you don't actually need to secure it.
[W] If you feel like you do need to secure it.
[W] Like with the banner collection.
[W] My last example of the Chautauqua banners, we could easily puncture a hole and lace up on.
[W] Those support layers to the board for some of those areas, especially with the fringe along the bottom.
[W] We needed something like that in order to prevent movement.
[W] While the those coroplast trays were being moved around.
[W] So if it's something like that on, then yes, twill tape ties, strips of fabric are also really good.
[W] That instead of throwing it away.
[>> W] So.
[W] I like this question too, because, you know, we talked a lot about rolling or you talked about rolling.
[W] It says is there a roll storage size that you often use as a standard?
[W] And what method would you use to determine the diameter size of rolled storage.
[W] So you know, we talked about rolling, but obviously there's different sizes of different supports.
[W] So how would you figure that out.
[>> W] So sometimes the type of flag you have.
[W] So especially in the 20th century, but sort of starting in the Civil War flags came in standard sizes.
[W] So that when we were working on that collection in Maine, we could easily.
[W] See like, okay, if I'm on, have a group of guidons, they're going to be.
[W] Basically three feet by four feet.
[W] So then, you know, your tube is going to be, you know, 3.5ft roughly.
[W] So you can start sort of that way by knowing the regiment, the, the sizes of the particular type of flag that you are, you know, think military, you know, they're very organized.
[W] So that would be one way to do it.
[W] The other thing is by knowing your collections sizes, you can easily start grouping into sizes that the most of a collection falls into.
[W] And start dividing that way, sort of creating a modular system.
[W] Then when you're ordering, let's say you're fortunate to have be able to order cabinets, you can make the drawers or pull out things custom to whatever that size is of that fits your collection or even storage boxes.
[W] You know, you can do two layers sometimes within an acid free box, going either direction based on on the length, or they can be in trays and you can lift, you know, there's a lot of variation, but basically the collection is going to tell you.
[W] But in flags are are nice that way because of the standardization that is present now, the size of the diameter, you know, if you're not rolling very much, then, you know, maybe a three inch diameter.
[W] But definitely as you get to a larger flag, you need to have a larger diameter.
[W] Flat or tube.
[W] And that's kind of just what it is.
[W] I would never use a two inch on diameter that's way too small.
[W] You know, three is kind of the minimal that you want.
[W] So yeah, the other thing is for smaller things, you want to make sure each flag has its own tube.
[W] You don't want to roll two different artifacts on the same tube thinking you're going to be efficient.
[W] Just cut the tube.
[W] You could use maybe the same support bar inside, but even then accessing gets complicated and challenging.
[W] So.
[W] Having modular making your collection into fit into mod modular sizes is really the most is the best and most recommended.
[>> W] And that makes sense.
[W] I mean, I know that whenever I've helped with large rolled format stuff, it is.
[W] It's almost like you want to keep it as a looser roll, you know what I mean?
[W] You don't want it to be like super tight, right?
[W] Because again, that that could hurt the object.
[W] But it's good to hear that you're aiming for three inches above with that diameter and not to double up.
[>> W] The other thing that you.
[W] People might have seen in the slides is different outer covers.
[W] I personally, I'm, I love I.
[W] Only want to see a fabric you know muslin or or sheets in a collection.
[W] I'm not a proponent for paper because paper never goes back as it was when you took out the artifact.
[W] There was a time when people often.
[W] Used mylar as the outer roll covering, and thinking that they wanted to.
[W] The curator typically wants to see the artifact.
[W] Well, you can easily put a picture on your label, and that should be sufficient.
[W] The part of the downside of mylar is it's very staticky.
[W] If your artifact is slightly powdery, and that could even be wool and cotton.
[W] That is going to cause end up causing damage in the end in that section of the.
[W] What's the outer roll of your flag?
[W] The other thing is mylar.
[W] It doesn't because of the hoist.
[>> W] Doesn't.
[>> W] Doesn't really conform to that added thickness such that that's where muslin is really the best.
[>> W] That makes sense.
[W] Well, it is 210, so I'm going to have to go ahead and close out today's program.
[W] Thank you so much, Gwen, for doing such a great job.
[W] I mean, I do think this was something it's one of those things that you come across in small and midsize a ton, you know what I mean?
[W] And you're often like, okay, what do I do with it?
[W] So I think it's really good to to cover kind of the basics and kind of how to store these things.
[W] And obviously, again, you do what you can do best with your budget, with your spacing, all that kind of stuff.
[W] But I think the key takeaways are, you know, you want the objects not to get too creased, you want them to be supported and just want to make them happy.
[W] And don't move them around a ton.
[W] If you're already noticing damage photo, document them, put them back.
[W] I think are my big takeaways for right now.
[W] Well, I'm going to go ahead and close out.
[W] We will see you all in March.
[W] Thanks again Gwen.
[W] And please do go to our website Connecting to Collections.
[W] Org to register for all of our great upcoming programing, and we will see you again at the end of March.
[W] So have a good one and we'll see you then.
[>> W] Bye. Hallux